Are you excited for the revival and engoodening of 4E?
>>927867364e was rehabilitated a year into 5e
>>92786767And many of its issues were fixed with PHB3 and Essentials.We also already have PF2.
buy an ad
>>92786736yes
>>92786736Holy shit buy an ad james this has been the same thread 5 times in a row
>>92786736>DnD 4e>A WotC edition of DnDNah.
>>927867674e was arguably rehabbed when Monks and Rangers were unplayable garbage at launch, but that's just by comparison, D&D sux.
Fat Dullville
>>92786781Ads don't create a groundswell of animosity prefacing its release.
>>92786779Is PF2 actually like 4e or is that just people memeing?
>>92786736Isn't Strike! already a better fork of 4E?
>>92788012PF2 is charop hell, it's the opposite of 4e, 4e at worst was partyop hell (but most 4e players were never so enlightened, party coherency was an emergent phenomenon, unlike Pathfinder 2e where you literally have to be a muchkin in order to build a working character regardless of what else is in your party)
>>92788032oh that explains why touhoufag moved on to pf2ehe also confirms my "touhou fandom was the precursor to gacha fandom" theory
>>92788023Only if you don't mind losing the more detailed character building and prefer having separate tracks for combat/non-combat ability.
Strike! is a prototype of a game at best.
>>92787452>5e Rangers suffered for the sins of 4e Wintertouched Twin Strike>5e Monks suffered despite no one ever playing a 4e Monk
>>92786736But 4e is already good and still played.
>>92786736Not unless they bring back the best part of 4e
4e was always good and I'm tired of pretending otherwise
>>92791316That's nice, nostalgic zoomer
I have a bunch of fantasy miniatures so will probably get into this game because I've been looking for a fantasy tactical skirmish game using miniatures
>>92786736I'm so heckin' excited I'm buying three copies. One for the table, a sealed collectors one and one to go right up my dickhole.
>>92788004Nobody needs that to hate Fatt Coville, tinfoil hatter. Explain why I shouldn't just ignore this with all the garbage pile of reactionary NotDnD projects.
>>927898114e was the single time Monks were ever good out of the box without spending an exhaustive effort minmaxing your way to moderate effectiveness.
I can't wait to share this in the PDF share thread.
>>92793767If you're not interested, you should hide threads about it. But if you weren't a newfag, you would know that this kind of shillspam is always someone trying to drum up burnout and hatred. It's a tactic as old as the board.
>>92786736yeah but 13th Age 2nd edition is rather expensive to donate to right now.
>>92786736Lancer RPG was published years ago.
>>92786736No, but I'll still pirate it to take a look and see if it has any potential. I have rock-bottom expectations though.
>>92793769And even then they were still mediocre at best. The most optimized possible monk is still worse than a basic bitch twin strike spamming ranger.
>>92788032>PF2 is charop hell>have to be a muchkin in order to build a working characterTell me you've never played PF2E without telling me you've never played PF2E
>>92786736No.
>>92797055but lancer is awful
>>92799279I'm not seeing anything wrong here.
>>92799279The ":D"s in a published text send me into a goddamn frenzy. The quotes inside paragraphs are almost as inherently offensive. Truly, how can someone publish something like this?
>>92799279Jesus Christ. As if the periodic>:Dwasn’t bad enough, the mealy-mouthed approach to trying to sell you on a tactical game, before quickly demurring and claiming that it isn’t a game about tactics, really doesn’t inspire confidence. The “cinematic” portion also comes across as very anti-creativity—they want you to imagine what THEY wrote and had in mind, rather than giving you the tools with which to make the character you’ve imagined on your own.
>>92786736Why are you trying so hard to make us hate this game before it even comes out?So far though, I'm liking how dynamic the combat seems to be, and it seems they've swapped to 2d10 over 2d6? At least James was talking about 2d10 today.
>>92789831Fuck me, Fell's Five was an amazing comic; those first 3 panels are a better comic than entire runs of others.
I do not care for what it's trying to be, especially having seen >>9279927 , but one of my players is a Colvilloid and another has said "but we're superheroes!" when playing a 3rd level Shadow of the Demon Lord character and trying to physically stop a charging bull with his body. So I suspect I'll end up playing it at some point, but I don't ever want to run anything like it.It strikes me as a game where the referee writes a story and the players control a unit on a grid during the altercations of that story. And I really don't like capeshit-with-swords style fantasy.
I'm interested in running it as a games system but am willing to shave off a lot of the world that it's being packaged with.
>>927996942d10 is a fantastic change. D20 is so antiquated and the swingy nature of it is suboptimal
>all those 4e threads in the past months were MCDM shills prepping for some massive ad campaignIt all make sense now, I knew all those threads didn't feel organic
>>927999092d10 is better, yeah. I was skeptical of 2d6 just because it's a little too mundance and doesn't give super interesting range, but 2d10 I jive with.
>>92799909oh my god I am so fucking tired of listening to autists pretend that the d20 is broken and using more dice will change everything.all you playpigs bitching about this just want to win-win-win-win-win everything and you think the odds will be "in your favor" if you have a bell curve - whatever the fuck that amounts to.
>>92799909Pretty nice bait, but you tried too hard with the self-reply.In other news, I enjoyed Matt's Orc write-up he narrated in a recent livestream. I like the move toward less encylopedic entries to describe races, but I do worry about the language being too casual when it comes to the rest of the book.
>>92799981Yes, we understand that you don't understand.
>>92788012>>92788032>>92788151none of this is truepf2e isn't like 4epf2 isn't charop helland pf2e isn't as good as 4e at combat either.It's an ok system but not really one I'd recommend to someone who wants to play 4e. It's certainly better than regular D&D while still being, basically, D&D.t. someone who actually played a campaign of pf2e
>>92793767If you have no intention of playing anything other than 5e, why did you click on a non-5e thread?
>>92797055lancer is nothing like 4eI've noticed a trend of whenever someone says "this is like 4e"it's never like 4e
>>92800140It's not hard to understand. It's like you're carbon copies of one another. Met too many of you both irl and online.
>>92800400>Nononononooo you can't fix d&d it's the perfect system STOOOOP holy seethe
>>92800238PF2 definitely draws on some elements of 4e, in comparison to its 3.pf roots and 5e.>Per-encounter abilities (focus spells)>Attack of opportunity is rare>Martials can do actually thingsIt's got a bit more of a 'tactical' vibe than 3.pf or 5e, so that lends it to the 4e comparisons. Is it a child of 4e? Of course not, but I think there's some some shared, underlying design-philosophy.
>>92800452Single die+modifiers resolution is not "broken." It doesn't need to be "fixed."
>>92800452>"fix"lollmaomake the "perfect" game yourself then. you types are eternal playpigs for a reason. you just simply do not understand what goes into running a game.
>>92800400It is for you because you don't.
>>92800518Matt isn't aiming for perfection, but he's going to address issues people have had with other fantasy TTRPGs. It's new and refreshing and should be encouraged
>>92800536>the d20 is swingy, using a 2d10 will fix this!flawed incomplete logic from a flawed incomplete individual
>>92800568>the d20 is swingyCorrect.>using a 2d10 will fix this!Also correct.
>>92800565nice attempt to swing it back to fatville's terrible game you're shilling for
>>92800568It does objectively make it less swingy, but being swingy isn't a bug, it's a feature.You're right, though, in that they're probably all foreverplayers that just want to succeed all the time because they play games where you roll to walk your dog in the morning because the games they play in are ran by individuals who drank the "Players Like Rolling Dice" Kool-aid. Something I've never understood. They have to roll for their thief to move quietly even when no one is really around, they have to roll for their wizard to know what a fairy is, and they have to roll for their fully healthy fighter to climb a cliff with a rope. All of which are fucking madness. When you have to roll for shit like that, and get punished by being made to roll for trying anything and grind the game to a halt for trying to interact with the world, you want it to be consistent. Which is understandable, but is not the fault of the system, it's the fault of a misunderstanding of the system. Unfortunately that has bled its way into modern games such that people think it's the right way to play. The correct philosophy in games with single die resolution is to only make the player roll as a punishment, to represent hasty uncertainty when time can't be taken on a task, or to resolve an action in combat because the active opposition they face creates inherent chaos in potential results. In those cases the swingy nature of a single die is the desired effect.I will say that, for a game like this, which is just capeshit-with-swords, the inherent competence that comes with a bell curve is fitting. But I'd also say that if you want to represent inherent competence, you just allow things to happen and don't force a roll to see if the thief can get into the building unless the building has notable security and not the security you'd actually find in a medieval setting.
>>92800699>It does objectively make it less swingyThey say without actually describing any mechanics surrounding the dice.Throw yourself into this philosophical vacuum and suffocate, please.Regardless it's very obvious you just play in 5eD&D games or whatever other shitshow has a GM asking you to roll for tying your shoes. If you want an example of a good game that uses multiple d6s there is an abundance of them to reference. Traveller and every Free League game comes to mind immediately for me.
>>92800699>pressure is off>retard always fails>specialist always succeeds>pressure is on>retard's chance of success improves>specialist's chance of success degradesShit idea.
>>92800738Your lack of understanding is noone's problem but your own.
>>92786736>>92786767>>92786779Lol 4rrys remain desperate it was never good, "every class gets the same powers" is not game design
>>92800768A strange claim to hide behind when your concept is simplistic and misguided.
>>92786736>MCDM RPGgod what a terrible name
>>92803817I think it’s pretty catchy
>>92786736Is it out? Can I see it?If not, then I am disappointed. This seems like the kind of book I'll never play but can use to laugh at and steal from in equal measure.
>>92786736I'm already playing like at least two systems based on 4e that are and will always be better than this e-celeb's rehash of the same half a dozen fantasy tropes.
>>92786736>Shitty enough to not even have a proper nameWhy should anyone care about this game?
Its impossible the game will be good. Impossible. Everything about it, and its team, makes it abundantly clear to anyone with a shred of taste or decency it will be an abomination, succeeding in one thing, by making a bunch of hacks a bunch of money. Aka, the status quo is maintained.
>>92805812>stealif it has things worth stealing then you'd have to acknowledge its got good ideas and than at that point why would you laugh at it. seems like that would make it worth playing
>>92786736Are they going to remove the at-will/encounter/daily ability structure from some of the classes?
>>92808087A system having some things worth stealing doesn't mean it isn't a bad system as a whole or isn't laughable even in the execution of those things. It also doesn't mean it's worth playing. A movie with awful writing but one good joke isn't suddenly a good movie because you like that joke.Unrelated, how would you have felt yesterday evening if you hadn't eaten breakfast or lunch?
Bump so people can go into Matt's chat next time he streams and ask him fucking stupid questions to annoy him.Though to be fair he doesn't need /tg/ people to hop in to do that.
>>92808087Even the biggest pile of shit in the world can have some nuggets of gold tucked away in it. That doesn't mean it isn't still a pile of shit.
>>92808087I like Matt's ideas, but his implementation is usually horrendous and his ideas basically require complete table buy-in around the new toys to work properly.I know this because I tried running one of his companies and it was pretty bad, just way too many rules. Now I do it without all the overhead of officers and company turns and all that shit
>>92800494Sorry I tried to pay attention to your post but I rolled a 1, so I've only got like a total 11.I'll get my friend here to roll, he's only got a 1 but, oh like a 17 he heard you perfectly!
>>92815230rolling for retarded shit you shouldn't have to roll for is not a fault of a single d20 roll but you aren't trying to argue with any sincerity so I don't know why I'm telling you this
>>92815201Yeah, his ideas and his pitch tend to be a lot better than the implementation, sadly.I think you can see it with how specific and deeply imagined the races and so forth are going to be in the game, with their own take on Dwarves and all the rest. I don't mind it, but there's definitely some kind of flavour buy-in in the system that you'd need to do some work to strip away from it for other use.
>>92801033i ran a 2 year campaign in 4E and I never had that problemwe had a >swordmage>rogue>wizard>cleric>monk
>>92805812This.Who's dick do I need to fellate to see the damn thing?
>>92801033Show me one power from four classes that are, according to you, "the same"
>>92799272lol okay pf2e faggot shill
>>92799566the worst part about lancer is certainly the community
>>92829170I DM lancer on occasion but never partake in any community around it. What's up with them?
>>92786736i like their system for attacks. all attacks hitting with the attack roll determining how well your hit lands is a much better way to handle the abstraction of HP. I've never seen HP as an actual measure of health but kind of like a stamina/luck/evasion meter that determines how well you shrug off/dodge/block attacks before the final damaging blow actually lands when you hit 0.
>>92800738>gets highly detailed post that explains why "swingy dice" is desirable>"kill urself"Eternal summer is truly the darkest of days.
>>92815230Since your friend only has 1 in listening, I don't even ask him. I ask the person with the highest level in the skill. You failed, so no one heard the sound of unsheathing blades from the next room.get fucked bellcuck.
>>92786736>tactical>heroic>cinematicThe grifing is strong with this one.
>>92788023No, not really. It borrows a lot of things from other systems that don't actually wind up working out that well. Also, there is an issue of there being multiple subsystems that make things kind of getting bogged down.One of the things that was really good about 4e is once you got a good grasp on things, 4e ran like a clock. Strike never reaches that point because there's a bunch of systems that interconnect but aren't really designed to fit together.And Strike, like many other 4e clones, all kind of have the same problem. They all try to fix the parts of 4e that weren't broken.
>>92799000Nah. From the modern perspective it's understood Monk is the best striker in the game and ranger is a decent B tier striker, and good rangers aren't using twin strike much outside heroic. Though it's less the ranger insomuch as the ranger|barbarian|warden|fighter strength melee striker mash in general.
>>92799279>>92799614>>92799626Also keep in mind the fucker wrote this shit and the game doesn't even have a solid foundation yet. How that fat bastard learned to con a bunch of freaks out of millions of dollars needs to be studied.
>>92799747>SotDL>"but we're superheroes!"Anon this is when you throw a couple demons at them.
>>92800453attacks of opportunities being rare was not a 4e thing, and martials doing things isn’t exclusive to 4e, and in fact doesn’t even really describe pf2e martials, which still have very few abilities compared to spellcasters, they just function better than their 3.pf counterparts because they have bigger numbers than spellcasters and the core gameplay is better and features a lot more combat options
>>92836475Sorcerer is the best striker in the game. Monk is after that.
>>92786736The 4E reception was proof that gamers are whiny little piggies who don't know what they want. It addressed literally every complaint about DnD the fans had(fighters are boring, someone is stuck as a healing bitch cleric, only levels 3-8 are fun, etc) and they turned on it like wild animals. I also feel like using MMO terminology like "slots" in the game and emulating WoW pauldroncore aesthetics really irked a sizeable portion of gamers. It's really hard to understand if you weren't a gamer in the mid 00's and seeing your friends drop of college, quit your RPG group, refuse to come to your party etc because of that goddamn game. I remember some guys bringing laptops to games so they could play DnD and WoW at the same time. That said, I feel like modern day gamers esp zoomers and Funkopop aging Millennials are ready to accept that DnD is a tactical boardgame about bashing monsters with your friends.
>>92829287>What's up with them?/leftypol/ took over the community, with no room for casual mech enjoyers. The last time I looked at the member list on Discord it was a wall of pronouns and sickle/anvils.
>>92838766>Never had an issue with levelling in dnd>Never had an issue with fighters>Never even played a healer-only cleric>Never liked MMOs>Never wanted to play wargames>Never liked 4e and voiced as much when it came out>I am a pig nowImagine a world where people can understand that there might be more than one person out in the universe. 4e is bad, always was, always will be, people rewriting history is to make their own egos better, people genuinely liking 4e does not mean tons of people didn't hate. I am the pig and you will heed my word.
>>92838766>fighters are boringThey're still boring ass shit that does little else beside pump out big numbers.
>>928398904e is an empirically viable game and a instrumentally dogshit one. I think only bugmen enjoy 4e.
>>92786736Minor revival when people check out the actual 4e? Yeah.But engoodening? Even though 4e has its flaws like feat bloat, Essentials powers powercreep and how themes were handled; I have great doubts that a successor with a wishy-washy generic fantasy theme to it ends up a superior game at the end of the day.Especially because it'll inevitably have its own flaws and divergences from the parts of 4e that people like which offsets the scales enough that it'll be the superior pick as a system for very few people, making it ultimately pointless as it brings only generic&off-brand changes and additions to the 4e experiences that benefit no one but the creator.I'm still interested in it and want to read it at some point, I just have my doubts on ever running it over 4e
>>92788012PF 2E has some of the vibes of 4e, but without the mid- to high-level hyperoptimization around reactions and other party-level stuff, and with much more support for characters having non-combat abilities without needing everything to be skill challenges.>>92788032>PF 2e>have to be a munchkinNah. The optimization ceiling is lower than 4e because of some of the intentional limits put in (for example, only 1 reaction/round by default), and synergy between party members isn't very dependent on specific class feat picks (except for classes that are entirely about that, like Bard), so almost any character can do well. (Putting aside, e.g., intentional idiot builds like having a wizard with 12 Int who puts everything into melee archetypes.)
>>92839926Try a PF 2E fighter. It's true they have big numbers (and there are actually regular arguments that their numbers are too big and that it distorts the builder environment for other classes), but they also get actually-useful class abilities every other level.
>>92840632>Try a PF 2E fighter.lol eat shit
>>92786736It seems really boring.
>>92837635>the core gameplay is better and features a lot more combat optionsFor a while I've been unironically thinking about trying to take some d20 Modern material and rebuild it using the PF 2E core mechanics, maybe including some elements from Star Wars Saga Edition as well. It feels like the PF 2E style has enough out-of-combat stuff to support WoD-y vibes better than 4E as a baseline would, and the PF 2E system of archetypes would also do interesting things to replace the d20 Modern mess of advanced/prestige classes.
>>92786736>named after an acronymWhat a bad business decision. People are going to look at it and say, "that's not for me, I don't know what MCDM is"
>>92786736I've been following it for a while, it's not looking good.>remove to-hit rolls because they feel bad>"Ok. Sure. Everything just hits I guess?">Realize you still want people to roll a "general die" at the start of their turn. Because one die roll good>So everyone rolls 2d6 for damage. Every single creature in the game.>Balance the game around this, 1st level heroes have like "30 Hp+main stat" in their description>Realize now effects are way too easy to get off, so go through like 5 design iterations to arrive at>"Enemies now roll against a DC to not get the effect">Basically spend a month to arrive at how DnD does it>Eventually learn that everything doing exactly 2d6 damage feels like absolute garbage for a "tactical, heroic, cinematic (find more buzzwords later)" game>can't just get different die for different weapons or the like, this is 4E>every single ability everyone has would have to have different die values and amounts>and you don't like that, because you want your strategic grid game to "feel viscerally satisfying" at the table in the interest of appeasing people who don't play strategic grid games>so, without options, you end up with having every single ability and attack in the game having a chart>you roll 2d6, look in the chart, it says the effect of your ability, there's 3 results to every chart>so now all the abilities and attacks in the game need 3 different lines for every result in the chart, and have 3 different effects, presumably you'd write the effects on your sheet or look them up each time>this is to keep the "habitual simplicity" or however he'll fucking swindle you to trust him, of rolling 2d6>oh, and monsters still roll to resist effect besides>because you don't like to-hit rollsThis and all the tranny shit like ancestry is turning me off it. How can you end up making 4e MORE cumbersome?
>>92788023I like astroknight.
>>92786736Buy a fucking add you spamming faggot.>>92786767>4eGarbage.>>92786779>PF2Garbager.
>>92840737>MCDMIt's even shittier if you know what it means. Fucking narcissist fag should at least have made himself a fantasy alter ego instead of just his real name + dungeon master.
>>92843863Turns out when you plan to put everything into a VTT anyway designing a video game for people to actually play and doing your job as a "game designer" isn't very important.At this point, they should just relabel the physical books as extra sturdy coasters, they'd actually have a purpose.
>>92843863>cumbersomeThe words you're looking for are "exceedingly convoluted" or "clunky". Add also "reinventing the wheel" to the bunch because:>every single ability and attack in the game having a chart. You roll 2d6, look in the chart, it says the effect of your abilityIt's literally Rolemaster, a game made 44 years ago (that also had the "to hit" and "damage" unified under one roll), so MCDM is not even breaking into new territories, which makes Fat Colville and followers full of shit on top of everything.
>>92843863Also, just to add to this shit, without missing and without rolling for damage, most of your attack will look like this>Precise Attack>Tags: Weapon, Time: 1 action, Target:One enemy within reach>You deal a crushing strike to an enemy you can see, putting all your strength into it>2-6: 3+STR damage>7-9: 5+STR damage>10-12: 7+STR damage and you push the target 2 squares.You will only ever do one of 3 things with an ability. There's no "lower hit" or "great hit" or "miss". You either do 3, 5, or 7 damage and never anything else. If you score a 12 you just get to take another action and do the same thing.I guess the point is if you want variety you get to use another one of your "awesome abilities", like "cleave" or "come on then", because one of the things Matt WON'T change from 4e is having the most uninspired ability names in existence. Can't wait for "Pushing strike" "Mighty Strike", "Whirlwind Strike" and "Piercing Strike" to all be options at the same level.
>>92843981It's well known that the piece of shit that makes this MCDM crap is terminally on /tg/ shitting up threads and pushing his bullshit and getting people banned and reporting people for linking his PDF's.All you need to know is that anything with MCDM in the title on /tg/ is just him shilling his garbage.
>>92786736This shit is 4e with only the bad things 4e had. Fuck off.
>>92838412Not really. While theoretically the sorcerer has a higher ceiling both end up meeting the highest breakpoints of 4e, and what gives the monk the edge is that Monk starts hitting higher breakpoints earlier, even if the sorcerer eventually overtakes them. Though of course, you could always just be a monk|sorc, and abuse the benefits of both. Then multiclass into paladin to go Morninglord. Ahh Morninglord, broken then, broken now.
>>92845234>All squares adjacent to your character cost 1 movement to move intoTHEN USE HEXESFUCK
>>92843863what you're doing is stating a bunch of your opinions on Matt's decisions and pretending that they're objectively bad criticisms. I think everything Matt's come up with so far is fantastic.
>>92853536Shut the fuck up, Matt.
>>92838412>>92852793please elaborate or point me to where i can read about these breakpoints and when classes can reach them
>>92853655Matt doesn't lurk on fucking 4chan, that's clearly James.
>>92853655>>92854026Seriously, Matt wouldn't say "I think everything Matt's come up with so far is fantastic"He'd concoct a 3-post-long thesis replying to every single person in this thread waxing poetic about drama or tensions or something without really answering anyone's questions about anything. Case in point:>>92840737>>92843988MCDM isn't even the name of the game, just his studio. The game doesn't have a public name yet. He's been strongly opposed to revealing the name of the game because... Reasons? In livestreams he covers up his tabs and shit and double checks to make sure the name isn't leaked. And why? There is no fucking why, he just seems to want posts like this, and people immediately coming to the conclusion he's an egomaniac who'd name the game something so obtuse, rather than just being straightforward for one god damned moment.>"WELL people who wanna know the name of the game just have restless leg syndrome - It doesn't actually matter and anyone who brings it up will get conveniently muted in chat" I'm actually a longtime fan of his but fucking fuck it's not hard. Even shitical role's RPG has a fucking name.So I'm petitioning OP (AKA James) to cut it the fuck out with these threads every week. There's nothing to fucking talk about yet.The board's for Traditional Games, not Traditional-Loose-Sets-Of-Barely-Pre-Alpha-Rules-That-Literally-Don't-Even-Have-A-Title-Or-Full-Playtest-Yet.
>>92854112No title, no framework. No foundations at all aside from some flowery language. I'd backed some of his old Keep and Warfare stuff, but this is just so fucking retarded. There are far smaller creators who don't dare use Kickstarter without basically having the game finished and just needing to pay for artists and layout work.
>>92854022It's something you familiarize yourself with spending your time in the greater 4e optimization community.The usual mentioned breakpoints are 1/4 a standard's hp (baseline 4e assumption), 1/4 an elite's hp, 1/4 a solo's hp, bloodying a solo, killing a solo, 1/4 an encounter's hp, bloodying an encounter, and killing an encounter in a round.Every class built to striker can, eventually, kill an encounter in a round, but the earlier you hit this breakpoint and the less resources you have to spend to do it makes the difference. Once you get to doing that, there's really not any point in shooting for a higher ceiling.
>>92840737I think the names pretty catchy
>>92858378Please stop bumping your own threads.It's so obnoxious.
>>92859998What if I do it for him
>>92859998>Crying about bumping threads on a board with autosage limits.You are pathetic.
>>92825007Every leader ever>Effect: Nearby ally can use a healing surge, how wonderful! Also do X completely unrelated thing.See Healing Strike, Revitalizing Incantation, Aid the Injured, Cure Light Wounds, etc.
