To destroy desktop linux and make linux only usable on server and backend for android like OSs.

>>100201979
Autistic thought processes.
>Dude... we should like............... scrap literally everything and start from ZERO.... surely this time we'll do everything right forever and won't ever need to restart from scratch again and again and again and again and again and again and fork into another fork of a fork of a fork of a fork into a fork
It's the AUTIST Sisyphus curse that many retards are born with into this world. Overthinking, OCD, BPD, ADHD, Prone to addictions, Prone to choice paralysis, Prone to restarting. Many. Many. Many such cases in Linux.

>>100201997
if anything it made desktop linux better. I am on wayland for 2 years now and it is so much smoother than xorg.

>>100202025
>>and again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpadHfqFnr4

>>100202051
Kope.
It is an unstable mess. Can't use GPU acceleration without giving special instruction.

>>100201979
hubris, built on the idiotic (and malicious) assumption that newer programmers are better than past ones and that all programs will eventually be ported to cringeland

>>100202102
now wayland already has problems that would require rewriting everything to fix them

>>100202108
Not surprising, 16 years and it's still not finished, I mean wtf, are the developers insane?

>>100202141
they totally learned a lot from xorg

Gnome and Wayland is why Microsoft can get away with telemetry, because people would rather have telemetry than deal with not having properly working thumbnails or any other the other hair brained "features" of Linux.

>>100202025
>>100202102
this. at this point they keep developing wayland out of sunk cost fallacy

>>100202088
in the last 2 years it worked for ME better than xorg, don't know how this would be cope but you do you.

>>100202051
You're full of shit and you're currently an unpaid beta tester for Red Hat. Enjoy being a cuck.

must updoot to current CoC goyified softwareslop so they control it all

>>100202321
thats a gnome problem, kde has thumbnails.

>>100202069
kek what's this from
whitest kids you know feeling

>>100202491
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VDvgL58h_Y

>>100202476
you sound like an angry old grumpy man who isn't going with the future.
I'm sad for you.
>>100202490
gnome has too

>>100202503
thanks anon

>>100202490
But the most popular distros come with Gnome by default, and the fact that Gnome deliberately ignores feature requests while begging for money means that people are no longer willing to donate because they are not getting what they "paid for".

>>100202505
>Cope cope cope

surprised how much gnome just werks these days. even with Wayland.

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Hey, Linux brothers, I have an idea - how about abandon Wayland, because it's bloated and old and make new one? Yes, it will make linux desktop unusable for about next 15 years, cause many users to experience painful transition, normal developers and business will probably abandon troonix completely, ecosystem will become more fragmented, even more complex hard to maintain, but it a price for progress.

>>100201979
They wanted to improve the Linux desktop. But sine they didn't actually care about the desktop, only embedded shit and other crap they got paid for, it was really bad and it has been taking years to get it ready for the desktop.

This year, for sure.

>>100202514
As a long time user of Linux since 2007, i can confirm that gnome has done nothing but get worse since then. it all started with gtk3.x thats when it went down hill. go look at some old gnome 2 screenshots using emerald and beryl. they look 100x better than the lazy flat monochrome look of today.

My stupid display setup choices

we got too close to year of the linux desktop so they had to act fast to avoid such a horrible fate. now we have waylandjtm0k

>>100202051
I don't like that auto fill doesn't work with keepassxc

>>100201979
NIH syndrome.

Code monkeys would rather invent something new than learn how to maintain something old, even if the new thing ends up just as bad or even worse than the old thing.

>>100202514
The best distro right now for desktop use is OpenSUSE Tumbleweed. It doesn't default you to any desktop system but gives you a free choice with none being favored by the distro above the others. This is the mature way for a distro to handle the problem.

>>100201979
im thinking wayland 2 will save linux

>>100201979
the way that wayland devs conduct themselves makes their project a perfect representative for tranny globohomo politics. "I am completely different and incompatible, you must change everything to accommodate me, and I will actively undermine you and your work until this seems preferable"
even if the devs were not trannies themselves, it would be a tranny project on a spiritual and metaphysical level

>>100202088
>Can't use GPU acceleration without giving special instruction
What?

>>100206832
run steam with nvidia cards on gayland like you do on X.

>>100206858
Is it just a nvidia thing, then? I have no issues with steam on wayland when using AMD.

>>100206858
>nvidia
Go ask them why they don't properly support their own hardware.

>>100206627
The Wayland devs are the X devs you retard

>>100206985
They aren't but keep repeating this meme without any evidence.

>>100207037
You can literally find this information in 5 seconds
Keep coping retard

Who the fuck is still shilling for some 40 years old unmaintainable software? Nobody wants to maintain X. The goblins that still want X are not going to maintain it. X is also easily the most bloated Linux related thing still in use.

>>100206985
Some of the wayland devs are some of the Xorg maintainers.
But honestly, that just makes it worse. They're incompetent retards.

>>100207122
You can't even name the supposed devs

>>100201979
Humiliation ritual.

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>>100201979
Getting rid of obsolete and dated Xorg.

ah yes, the "new" protocol that's the "future" of linux that's been in "development" for 15 years and is STILL a mess

>>100207392
>hagfucker (24)
I still wonder why your time zone is like this.
Are you Russian?

>>100201979
Moving the Linux desktop past the 2000's era xorg had it stuck in? It's fine, it works well. I'm using it, even with an Nvidia card, and it's so much smoother and nicer. Every single release fixes more and more of the bugs, which are mostly just very minor visual glitches you barely notice.

>>100201979
It's obviously the feature, but nobody can deny that Wayland and its shittiness threw back the Linux desktop by years. Even now, Wayland is doing many things worse than X11.
Wayland is an expression of everything wrong with the modern Linux desktop.

>>100202480
nigga get a JOB

>>100207392
cute desktop

>>100207392
>>100208406
samefag

>>100207392
What makes X "obsolete" and "dated"?

>>100209758
Lackluster support for HiDPI displays, multiple monitors, and high refresh rates.

>>100201979
to increase AMD profit.

>>100209758
His feefees.

>>100201979
The point was making a streamlined graphics stack that's focused on meeting the needs of the 21st century instead of the 1980s.

>>100202025
Pretty much. I said it when Wayland was first started the moment I read how they praised it with:
>Xorg has so much cruft, we can start over and make the codebase clean this time and not overengineer it and keep it simple

This is something inexperienced programmers say who never did this before. Once you added all the features needed to make it competitive with X11 it's the same mess all over again. The entire sell of Wayland read as written by someone who underestimated the scope of the problem. They originally thought they didn't need many things they later reluctantly added because they did and all those “security” prommises are void already with all the extensions for introspection that are now supported by wltroots and KDE, except in an incompatible way.

>>100202102
>and that all programs will eventually be ported to cringeland
This too.
This happens so often that programmers are surprised people aren't porting things or switching over to what they think is their new, better product.

For people to switch it doesn't just need to be “good enough, and new”, not even “better” but “so much better that it justifies the cost of switching” that's what they don't get and free software developers are generally passionate hobbyists who program for fun who don't seem to realize that most people don't think porting is fun, but something that takes time.

I've seen it happen so many times that they were surprised that people weren't switching over and porting. Even if the new product be better like in the Python3 case. It still isn't worth it to port an entire codebase which Guido didn't seem to get.

And it all led to manpower bleeding away to Wayland rather than fixing Xorg, which is the new existing thing for programmers that still has 10% adoption.

>>100211949
do you think it's possible to convince the lost manpower back? seriously how is that these people can work on xorg/wayland and not understand what you said?

>>100211862
>focused on meeting the needs of the 21st century
well too bad they utterly failed at that one

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More efficient
more security
perfect frames
Anime tiddies
supports newer display technologies
makes faggots seethe
better tooling
runs on low end hardware better(Kodi on an sbc htpc runs waaaaay better on wayland)
cute anime girl desktops
just werks
better implementation
makes (you) seethe
Segregates the Linux desktop, keeps gn*me niggers in their own neighborhood
Makes Linux desktop top tier
It's good

>>100212014
They succeeded. 2024 is the year Wayland takes over. Get back to me in 2025 and let's see what the situation is then.

>>100212037
>nobody is ever going to go out of their way to support for fear of being cancelled as well

>>100212037
tsmt

>>100212044
The core protocol is so bad that they didn't even have the foresight to make scaling non-integers lmao

another fucking wayland thread
just pick a display manager and use it. jesus christ you faggots have nothing better to talk about
>>100209758
>dated
xorg is from before gui days, and still has code from those days. some call this bloat, others don't talk about it

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>>100212057
Nigger they "cancelled" hyprland
Hyprland is still getting users. The fuckers writing code. Nobodies writing code for x11 including (you). Its the one time that red hat has fucked up so much that they gave away control of Linux desktop, thinking a bunch of trannies could manage it "democratically" with freedesktop.org not realizing that trannies will do what trannies do and now they lost power.
So stop sucking cock, quit being a faggot, love anime tiddies, get a real gf, marry and fuck her right, raise your child right so they never troon out, and enjoy wayland.

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>>100201979
It's a "pro developer" anti consumer make work circle jerk. It's loosely related to the Red Hat project, so it is sus.

>>100211997
Have you ever debated with the average Freedesktop developer and many free software developers in general?
The issue is, these people start out as people who do passion projects and then get later promote to a paid position. They're fundamentally passionate and biased is the issue.

Ever noticed how free software developers are typically extremely tribalist and full of not-invented-here stuff? It's blatantly clear they're constantly protecting and defending their own to the death with absolutely bizarre logic.

Honestly, much of the really corporate stuff such as that from Valve and Rust are the ones that are actually objective and listen to technical arguments. Most of the Redhat crowd is filled with tribalism idiots.
Wayland is “theirs”; they will never admit that it was a bad idea no matter how much technical arguments woud be against it. The Valve dev that blocked Wayland in SDK was objective and most of all answered to profits. That person was first and foremost interested in turning a profit for Valve, and that means making life as good as possible for Valve's customers.

The people that work for companies like Google, Valve, Mozilla, they're listening to reason and technical arguments. The people that work for Red Hat or KDE, not so much, they're people who started it due to passion, not because they applied to a random job because they needed money.

>>100201979
Hyprland is better than BSPWM so i'm good

>>100212239
>they're people who started it due to passion
that's what I just don't get, if they're really passionate wouldn't they want what's best for their project rather than being dogmatic just to keep their project feeling "special" and theirs? like you said, it's ridiculous the amount of hoops these guys will jump through
honestly the more I learn about these guys the more I'm surprised the FOSS ecosystem has survived this long

>>100210200
None of that is true. You can set your dpi, and arbitrary refresh rates and resolutions for an arbitrary number of monitors in xorg.conf.

>>100213327
Xorg has no actual support for those things, only hacks, which means it doesn't work properly. I have two 27" 4K monitors plugged into my laptop. On KDE on Wayland, the scaling works perfectly. On KDE on Xorg, it's broken.
That's exactly why Xorg devs chose to work on Wayland instead because they want to actually implement those features and not just hack them on top of 80s legacy software.

Also I forgot to mention, Wayland has HDR support too.

>>100213699
Randr solved multi monitors in xorg over a decade ago.
>Wayland instead because they want to actually implement those features
lmao. spoken like someone who doesn't realize how much of the modern wayland ecosystem is hacks on top of legacy 00s software

>>100212492
>that's what I just don't get, if they're really passionate wouldn't they want what's best for their project rather than being dogmatic just to keep their project feeling "special" and theirs?
No? They feel tribal allegiance and simply defend “their own” to the death and refuse to acknowledge even a single thing wrong with them.

Passionate people typically aren't rational. They probably convince themselves that they want the best for it, yes.

>the more I learn about these guys the more I'm surprised the FOSS ecosystem has survived this long

It's a true testament to how much better of a development model it is in theory that it can overcome this kind of incompetence to be honest.

They're not the only one. Look at OpenBSD: they dogfood everything there too. All openBSD devs use tmux, all GNU devs use screen. Do you think that's because they came to the conclusion that either is better for their own subjective needs? Of course not. It's not-invented-here-syndrome.
Suckless devs are also pretty bad.

Maybe what keeps it alive is the new influx of actual for-profit companies like Google, Valve, Mozilla and now even Microsoft who see open source not as an ideology, but as something that's convenient to make money of. As said, their devs listen to reason.

The resistance the Valve dev met when that person said Wayland wasn't ready yet and wouldn't be without some serious re-engineering of the protocol was staggering. They indeed went through all sorts of hoops and clearly didn't care about quality, the important thing for them was that “one of their own” was being favored.

>>100201979
Wayland is cool to experiment with. I mean, Xorg is gonna be obsolete soon. Do you want to be a stuck up Boomer? I don't think so. Making the switch to Wayland should be easy as pie, especially with Red Hat spearheading the revolution.
The time of Xorg was yesterday, NOW is the time for Wayland. Make way, Chuds.

>>100213915
Tell me when wayland stopd having an aneurysm every time I try to use anything other than integrated graphics

>>100202108
like what?

>>100213858
>It's a true testament to how much better of a development model it is in theory that it can overcome this kind of incompetence to be honest.
kek this

>>100202354
>they keep developing wayland out of sunk cost fallacy
>>100211949
>it doesn't just need to be “good enough, and new”, not even “better” but “so much better that it justifies the cost of switching”
kek

>>100213988
I will also say that these passionate tribalists do work hard.
They may be super biased, but they do often churn out code like madmen and work off the clock too.

>>100213984
Explicit sync support is effectively a complete rewrite that requires a completely different code path in all compositors for all wayland rendering.

>>100214186
well it's more work for the compositor and clients because they have to work with semaphores, of course that's gonna require more code
>is effectively a complete rewrite
no it's not

>>100201979
Maybe it's for desktop effects like Compiz or transparent terminal.

>>100214319
That's basically what the Wayfire compositor is.

That's what MATE is using for their Wayland session.

>>100213805
>Randr solved multi monitors in xorg over a decade ago
That is the problem. A lot hss changed since then.

Wayland Devs linked up with the IPv6 designers

>>100201979
As a casual linux desktop user for 20 years, I haven't been following the whole xorg vs wayland thing, but i did always wonder, why compiz didn't stick around. That was the one period, linux desktop was lightning fast and super responsive.

>>100202051
if you exclusively use something then how would you know

>>100201979
to finally ditch that stacked pile of shit called Xorg

>>100201979
None. Almost 16 years later, it's still nowhere close to replacing X11 and the vast majority of desktop users are still running X11.

See https://www.phoronix.com/news/Firefox-Wayland-X11-Stats

>>100213699
>Xorg has no actual support for those things, only hacks
The important thing is that it works. Only results matter, whether they come from some grand unified design or a "hack".

>That's exactly why Xorg devs chose to work on Wayland
The vast majority of the people who contributed the vast majority of the work to X.org/X11 never even touched Wayland. This "Wayland devs are X.org devs" is nothing but a dishonest sophism which ought to end.

>>100212207
>Nobodies writing code for x11
They don't need to. It works. Why do you think people need to COOOOOOOODE nonstop?

>>100213699
This desu, multimonitor on Xorg is a fucking lottery. There are just so many moving parts to it and in case the planets don't align as well it won't work. Wayland multimonitor seems a lot more flexible and more likely to work.

>>100216648
>It will be interesting to see how this data evolves overtime once Ubuntu 22.04 LTS has been out as their first long-term support release with the Wayland session by default, among other Linux distributions that have been moving towards Wayland
>no follow-up
what did they mean by this?

>>100201997
sounds like definition of linux from years

>>100217221
>They don't need to
Yes they do.
>Why do you think people need to COOOOOOOODE nonstop?
Because while the software stack never changes, new bugs are constantly found as other software gets developed, including new drivers for new hardware. As new hardware is sold with new features, people who buy that hardware would like to use those features. Such as HDR. Some people buy new monitors with higher refresh rates to use in conjunction with their old monitor with a lower refresh rate. One day we may have displays that do something entirely different like 3d holographics or shoot images directly into your eyeballs and x11 will most likely not support those technologies either.

Newer display gimmicks I would guess
Take for instance my setup: 2 freesync monitors, both 165hz, different resolutions. Seemingly fine but I cannot use VRR under xorg. Only on Wayland. With different refresh rates it gets worse. Proper scaling on x11 only seems supported on Plasma which is moving away from it. GNOME X11 doesn't seem to have fractional scaling at all.
On Wayland though there's plenty of issues. Fractional scaling on firefox through wayland just gets fucked, it's unusable. Scrolling at other speeds than default feels weird. Drag and drop works whenever it pleases. It's more complicated to tell certain applications that I don't want to middleclick paste. Custom modelines don't seem to be a thing. And of course a good amount of DEs still do not support it.

So I'm basically fucked here because I happen to have more than one monitor and I want to use a feature. Maybe I'll try AsyncFlipSecondaries, but I'm not entirely sure which monitor is going to be detected to be the primary one.

>>100213699
>hacks
There isn't even standard support for custom modelines on wayland. Wayland people call things they don't support hacks while ignoring the very literally hacks like shipping per-application load balancers so mouse events won't crash the compositor aka the entire display server.

>Wayland has HDR support too
No it doesn't. kwin has _partial_ HDR support and color profile enforcement, but not calibration. There is no wayland protocol for color management or HDR.

>Xorg devs
There is exactly one X.org dev who predates wayland that works on wayland now. Daniel Stone. There are exactly two X.org devs who have worked on both wayland and X.org pre-wayland. Daniel Stone and Kristian Hogsberg.

>>100217243
>multimonitor on Xorg is a fucking lottery
Quit lying.
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Multihead

>>100218950
what the fuck are you talking about

>>100218950
Wrong tab.

>>100218727
Nevermind. The primary screen freaks out with AsyncFlipSecondaries. X11 is just fucking broken outright unfortunately when it comes to multiple monitors.

>>100219020
No, xorg works fine with multiple monitors. You don't understand what you're doing. AsyncFlipSecondaries is used to allow monitors at two different refresh rates to run vsynced simultaneously. It doesn't have anything to do with VRR memetech.

>>100218958
The one who this was meant for (someone who fucks ugly prostitutes) found it anyway
>>>/a/265971607

>>100219066
You're right, it doesn't seem to make the primary monitor work with VRR at all, I don't know why they have to mislead people in the arch wiki with "Suppose you have a new 144Hz FreeSync capable monitor".
But in any case it doesn't do what you say either at all. The secondary monitor will tear the fuck up if that setting is enabled. It's done so the primary one can not only run at a higher refresh rate but also not be capped.
VRR is the best "memetech" conceived in the last decade. It gets rid of tearing and input lag at whatever framerates. There's a good fuckton of jittery shit out there and it does effectively solve that problem. Much more useful to me than HDR will ever be.

>>100204712
So you like the fact that all your X11 apps can read your master password and have access to the whole database?

>>100212492
they are passionate for their ideas and the work they have done, not the big picture of the project. Very few people are big picture people, and they tend to not like to work on details, bc they are bad with details

>>100219200
>The secondary monitor will tear the fuck up if that setting is enabled
No, it means the compositor, if you use one, allows the secondary monitor to tear. Unless you're running two different games on your monitors this is a non-issue. If you want to run a fullscreen application across two or more monitors, VRR works fine, because you're fullscreening across the "screen" instead of a "display" (xorg monitor). If you really want per-monitor VRR you can build xorg with this patch, I used to do it when I ran 2x 1080 monitors.
https://gitlab.com/pac85/xorg-server/-/commit/e2a4d5cf8965f7fcc8f07d04cb1e95f5e62a0094
>It gets rid of tearing and input lag at whatever framerates
It absolutely does not. VRR doesn't work properly without vsync and the cost of it is flickering and an unstable refresh rate (on amd at least). It's unnecessary in the first place if you can keep a stable framerate.

>>100219268
I like the fact that it works, yes. Same way it does on windows.

>>100213805
>Randr solved multi monitors in xorg over a decade ago.
LOL sure did bud, if all you do is use homogeneous monitors.

>>100213699
>80s legacy software
This. This shit was made for the needs of text-based mainframe terminals.

>>100219355
>This. This shit was made for the needs of text-based mainframe terminals.
You don't use the terminal? Dumb techlet zoomer.

>>100219293
I'm using an AMD GPU and I have zero flickering with VRR. It's smooth as shit too. I can have some game running at around 85fps and there's no need to compromise anything to match a higher refresh rate or cap it to 60fps through vsync to make it not look odd. Even in emulation it works out quite well considering the retarded refresh rates some arcade games use that are not quite close to 59.94hz. It's a godsend for MAME. If you use a VA monitor you might have flickering, but that's a problem with VA.

MIR was a better idea and you know it.
maybe now arcan is the way to go

>>100219434
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues/?label_name%5B%5D=VRR
Then you're blind or lying.

>>100219308
You did not answer my question.
I think the Windows DE is a terrible example to follow.
Also, from a quick search I've seen multiple solutions for auto-type to work on Wayland, so I guess you should ask the KeePass devs to add support.

>>100219409
>You don't use the terminal?
No, and neither do you.
You use terminal emulators on top of modern graphical display stacks. Sorry to break it to you.

>>100219491
Terminal emulators follow the design of text-based mainframe terminals. All of the basic mechanisms are still the same.
Why do you use legacy tech from the mainframe era?

>>100201979
Xorg was getting old 15 years ago so they started Wayland

>>100201979
Wayland is a shit solution, but it is still better than X.

We should have gotten a better successor, but beggars can't be choosers.

>>100206627
So much of open sauce is like this now
Gayland Gnome Rust
Reddit Modification
"We've done this in the worst possible way, to make things work the least, because it gets me hard to make you comply"
Maybe Microsoft pays them

>>100219456
Yes I'm blind because my setup works correctly but an open source driver cannot handle it all that well apparently. Many issues in there seem to be people trying it over on x11 too, kinda funny.

>>100219491
>You did not answer my question.
Yeah, I did. Malicious X11 and wayland apps can already read my entire database by taking advantage of the unfixable print screen vuln.
>I think the Windows DE is a terrible example to follow.
Because it works? MacOS has the same model. It's only wayland that regards key capture as a security issue.

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Wayland is like a new government. We "wanted" it, we're glad the old one is gone, the new one is the future, it's fucking shit, and it will be replaced again soon enough.

>>100219504
Why do you write words when you could just draw everything you want to express, or upload a short video on the subject?

>>100219514
>Many issues in there seem to be people trying it over on x11 too, kinda funny.
Kinda funny that you're ignoring the only issue that even specifies a display server is a wayland issue. And here's a random issue I picked where the issue is on both X and wayland.
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/amd/-/issues/2841
Almost like the VRR implementation itself is inherently flawed.

>>100219556
>the only issue that even specifies a display server
*in the title

>>100219508
/thread

>>100219508
As long as there are still no working replacements for important X utilities, I'll say Wayland is worse.

>>100219556
I don't think you have actually read what you linked.
>On Windows it behaves correctly
Solution 1: Use windows
>On Linux it doesn't
Solution 2: Fix it on linux to behave in a way that it works
>I have an old monitor
Solution 3: Buy a proper VRR monitor

You're presenting VRR as this thing that never works when all you have to do is use software that supports it and hardware that supports it.

>>100218500
Yeah, outdated shitware like X11 will never support cool modern hardware like 8kHz mice, Wayland is the future. Oh wait.

>>100219524
>the unfixable print screen vuln.
Elaborate.

>>100219524
>It's only wayland that regards key capture as a security issue.
And that makes Wayland superior to the alternatives.
This is not the only advantage it has over X11 mind you, as I'm certain you're well aware.

>>100214293
Explict sync makes the entire core rendering model of wayland completely wrong. The whole "wait for a surface commit from a client" thing is essentially legacy. Of course, they won't admit this, but that's effectively the result. Like many other wayland protocols, the extension is hacked on to workaround designs in the core that turned out to be flawed and wrong.

>>100212037
>more security
They don't yet support security-context-v1 unlike sway so giving access to the wayland socket is a trivial sandbox escape or information leak via privileged protocols.

>>100219764
>And that makes Wayland superior to the alternatives.
If you have the know-how to prevent an application from doing far worse things than keylogging (which it'll be able to do anyway once it gets root), then you probably also have the know-how to prevent an application from keylogging on X.

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macOS > Windows > Wayland > X11 > GNOME/KDE on either of those

>>100219729
I'm presenting VRR as this thing that's pointless in the first place (except for consoles) and has inherent flaws like flickering from rapid refresh rate changes. Buy a graphics card that can run the game well at your framecap or lower the cap. I have a single 4k 144hz monitor and I don't use VRR given the option to, because it's a gimmick used to justify higher prices on monitors. Same as 99% of HDR implementations.
>HDR400 and nonfunctional local dimming clearly means we can double the price of our rebranded LG panel with gamer LEDs

>>100219764
>Elaborate.
Any gui application can capture your entire graphics buffer. Wayland doesn't make a difference.

>And that makes Wayland superior to the alternatives
Wayland is older than an entire operating system (android) and doesn't have the full feature set of what it was originally designed to clone (surface flinger).

>>100214534
There is no technical limitation here. Randr has all the proper abstractions you need to add support for whatever new thing comes along. Red hat decided that wayland would sell more support contracts in the long run and went with that

>>100219890
>it's a gimmick used to justify higher prices on monitors
i'm not sure I've seen a 144hz monitor which doesn't support this. it doesn't command a premium at all.

>>100219957
Back in the day it was. Nvidia opened the floodgates with gsync, which required monitors manufacturers to implement it in hardware. AMD followed with freesync, which was theoretically software only. But prices never came down and now you've got gsync and freesync premium, which impose certainly minimum performance standards.

>>100219920
How? Via access to a DRM render node?

>>100219992
>How?
By taking a screenshot of the desktop you mong.

>>100220000
Not him but there is no way to actually do that in a way that will work on every compositor.

>>100220012
>how to summarise wayland
kek
But actually, you just call the screenshot program of the compositor/DE/display server amalgamation. 99% of wayland installs are just running KDE or Gnome.

>>100202051
Holy ESL

>>100219855
>If you have the know-how
I don't have to.
If you ask anyone unfamiliar with the nitty gritty details of DEs what's their expectation about app A being able to read the password input of app B, everyone will tell you they don't expect it to be able to read it.
It's an intuitive expectation and that's the default behavior on Wayland.

>>100219920
>Any gui application can capture your entire graphics buffer
I might be wrong, but I believe this is impossible on Wayland. Can you please provide proof of that?

>>100219920
>surface flinger
Comparing surface flinger to Wayland, complexity wise, is like comparing a bicycle to a space ship.
Surface flinger's mission is extremely simple in comparison and does not have to contend with the complexities of window management and the multitude of simultaneous input/output systems.
Flinger is not even able to show more than one window at a time. When you see 2 apps shown simultaneously it's all done in hardware layers on the GPU side.
Don't bring mobile display services to the discussion of DEs if you don't want to make a fool of yourself.

>>100220000
Ok, go ahead and write me a simple app that can screenshot my Wayland compositor.
I'm waiting.

>>100219874
Windows window manager is somehow even worse than Wayland for me

When I alt-tab on Win11 shit gets really unstable, Win11 becomes slow. Wayland+KDE is smooth as fuck to me. And I'm on NVIDIA

>>100219890
>I'm presenting VRR as this thing that's pointless in the first place (except for consoles)
There's no difference between what VRR does on consoles and what it does on PC
>inherent flaws like flickering from rapid refresh rate changes
Again, that's a problem with panel technology. If you have IPS this is not an issue.
>Buy a graphics card that can run the game well at your framecap or lower the cap.
Again. Lower the cap and you get input lag that your grandma can notice. You'll have to enable vsync anyways, or you get some really annoying tearing. It gets worse under than over your refresh rate. Anything that cannot reach 60fps needs triple buffering vsync to be anywhere near "smooth".
And good luck getting a GPU that can run everything at even 120fps without having to use frame generation. Not to mention the absurd amount of games out there that just don't handle framerate all that well regardless of which hardware you have.
>Same as 99% of HDR implementations.
>HDR400 and nonfunctional local dimming clearly means we can double the price of our rebranded LG panel with gamer LEDs
That HDR implementation you speak of is not doubling anything in price, which is why it sucks balls. If you buy a $200 1440p 165hz monitor and expect amazing HDR and VRR you're an actual retard. Do you also buy $50 refurbished ergo chairs and complain about ergonomic chairs existing as a concept because yours sucks dick?

>>100220071
https://apps.kde.org/spectacle/

>>100220046
Why are you guys perpetually shocked that most 4chan visitors are not american if it has always been like this?

>>100220000
I was assuming that the process is actually sandboxed properly. My mpv doesn't have access to screencopy or export-dmabuf on my system so it can't take a screenshot of my desktop :)
I was wondering if the accelerated graphics stack was inherently flawed or something.

>>100220091
That depends on Kwin itself. It cannot take a screenshot without it's consent.
And btw, that's unrelated to the keylogger problem.

>>100220075
Skill issue.

>>100219604
>important X utilities
Such as?

>>100220098
>sandboxing
Too bad years of flatpak have seen that the permission system is broken.
>devs ship apps with lax permissions to avoid bug reports
>users use flatseal to allow everything to stop apps breaking
>>100220105
>It cannot take a screenshot without it's consent
See above. Permissions don't work.
>keylogger problem
It's not a problem on desktop display servers people actually use like WDDM, Quartz and Xorg.

>>100220124
xrandr, xdotool, xmodmap, xset
It's all compositor specific.

>>100220012
ScreenCast and Screenshot portals will work on basically every desktop

>>100220137
>It's all compositor specific.
Yes, that is to be expected, as the compositor should be responsible for those areas instead of being dependent on hacks of underlying systems with little to no hope of ever being improved.
As a result of that, with this new freedom, screen management on Wayland is already miles ahead than on X11 in the most important DEs.
If you're using some smaller or exotic DE that doesn't want to implement Wayland, you can keep using X11. Nothing wrong with that, albeit with it's limitations.

>>100220187
>you can use X
how magnanimous of you

>>100220130
>Permissions don't work.
The simple fact that now apps can't screenshot my screen is proof that it's working.

>>100220186
requires that the compositor has a portal implementation

>>100220079
>There's no difference between what VRR does on consoles and what it does on PC
VRR is necessary on consoles because consoles don't have the hardware to keep consistent fps.
>Again, that's a problem with panel technology. If you have IPS this is not an issue.
I have an IPS screen. Flickering is inherent to VRR. It is better or worse on some panel tech, but unavoidable in situations where your fps rapidly changes.
>You'll have to enable vsync anyways
Like I said, VRR doesn't work properly without vsync.
https://blurbusters.com/gsync/gsync101-input-lag-tests-and-settings/15
If you want the lowest input lag possible, you don't use vsync at all. If you want the lowest input lag possible with minimum tearing, you use mailbox vsync. If you're believes in hocus pocus, you turn on freesync on your monitor and believe it casues lower input lag and zero tearing because the marketers say so. VRR is an extension to vsync, not a replacement.
>That HDR implementation you speak of is not doubling anything in price, which is why it sucks balls
The letters HDR let the manufacturers charge a higher price from retards, like the words freesync and gsync. The HDR implementations on 99% of monitors today, not just HDR400, are dogshit that only spike brightness in a differently inaccurate way compared to SDR monitors. Same as how wide color gamut means oversaturated on consumer monitors.

>>100220201
Yes, as they should.

>>100220187
>Yes, that is to be expected, as the compositor should be responsible for those areas instead of being dependent on hacks of underlying systems with little to no hope of ever being improved.
How the fuck is a standard way to change something a hack of an underlying system?

>>100220200
That's wrong. They have no standard way of taking screenshots. They could still do evil hacks to do whatever the fuck they want with the system.

>>100220212
I don't agree with that

>>100220201
It should work for at least say 95% of wayland desktop compositor users. GNOME, KDE, and all wlroots compositors have a screencast/shot portal impl

>>100220200
They weren't taking screenshots of your screen in the first place. Dbus permissions can't stop them if they wanted to, because a malicious application will request those permissions on first launch, the average user will click through and the whole thing amounts to red hat rediscovering windows vista UAC.

>>100220211
>VRR is necessary on consoles because consoles don't have the hardware to keep consistent fps.
So you're saying PC gamers don't benefit from VRR because everyone can run all games above the screen refresh rate?
What world do you live in?

>Like I said, VRR doesn't work properly without vsync.
It does. It's a completely separate system from Vsync.
If you go above the monitor's maximum frequency and don't want screen tearing, then ofc you need to enable it, but it's independent.
Don't mix it up.

>believe it casues lower input lag and zero tearing because the marketers say so
The input lag caused by VRR is orders of magnitude smaller than using Vsync. It's irrelevant.

>>100220201
>requires that the compositor implements a protocol that wayland is literally unusable without
what level of cope is this

>>100220266
Actually read the article.
>The tearing inside the G-SYNC range with V-SYNC “Off” is caused by sudden frametime variances output by the system, which will vary in severity and frequency depending on both the efficiency of the given game engine, and the system’s ability (or inability) to deliver consistent frametimes.

G-SYNC + V-SYNC “Off” disables the G-SYNC module’s ability to compensate for sudden frametime variances, meaning, instead of aligning the next frame scan to the next scanout (the process that physically draws each frame, pixel by pixel, left to right, top to bottom on-screen), G-SYNC + V-SYNC “Off” will opt to start the next frame scan in the current scanout instead. This results in simultaneous delivery of more than one frame in a single scanout (tearing).

In the Upper FPS range, tearing will be limited to the bottom of the display. In the Lower FPS range (<36) where frametime spikes can occur (see What are Frametime Spikes?), full tearing will begin.

Without frametime compensation, G-SYNC functionality with V-SYNC “Off” is effectively “Adaptive G-SYNC,” and should be avoided for a tear-free experience (see G-SYNC 101: Optimal Settings & Conclusion).

>>100220226
>They could still do evil hacks to do whatever the fuck they want
Wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about.
Keep using X11.

>>100220233
Fair enough. Then maintaining and using X11.

>>100220257
>the average user will click through
Then let the average user be retarded. But at least now we have a simple and effective method of NOT clicking through instead of defaulting to "able to read everything".

>>100201979
This W looks like cum stain.

>>100220215
>a standard way
That's the thing. X11 is not a standard. It's an implementation.
And now that it's left unmaintained, your "standard" doesn't work anymore.
Someone else would need to build another X11 server from the ground up, or maintain the existing one, and absolutely no one is willing to touch X11 with a 10 foot pole.

>>100220302
>But at least now we have a simple and effective method of NOT clicking through instead of defaulting to "able to read everything".
A simple and effective method of security theater, that is magnitudes less powerful than using XACE. Not to mention that feature has been in Xorg with XSECURITY (namespace sandboxing with xpra and xephyr) longer than wayland has existed.

>>100220330
>That's the thing. X11 is not a standard. It's an implementation.
X11 is literally a standard.

>>100220330
>X11 is not a standard. It's an implementation
This is the level of knowledge of wayland shills kek

>>100220302
>Wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about.
No you.
>Keep using X11.
But they want to remove X11 support from everything.

>>100201979
How much does gamescope improve Wayland?

>>100220286
Interesting.
I was there when the article was published but I don't remember the details after all these years. Keep in mind that it might be quite outdated to the current state of VRR. But I'll give that article a re-read.
From what I've seen recently though, the added input lag from VRR is insignificant.

>>100220390
>the added input lag from VRR is insignificant.
It's not that VRR adds (noticeable) input lag, it's that it doesn't decrease it because it can't fully replace vsync. You can use VRR to get less tearing and similar input lag to non-vsync non-vrr setups, but not no tearing.

>>100220333
Then it should've been turned on by default on modern distros.

>>100220335
>>100220342
It was supposed to be just a standard. But it became a de-facto single implementation. You know that.

>>100220346
>But they want to remove X11 support from everything.
Then ask around those devs their reasoning for preferring the Wayland system. Weight the pros and cons, and try to convince then they are all wrong and you're the one who is right.

>>100220410
I don't understand why.
If I'm inside my monitor's VRR range, how can there be any tearing, or any additional input lag (except for the partial frame lag, ofc)?

>>100220211
>VRR is necessary on consoles because consoles don't have the hardware to keep consistent fps.
You don't seem to understand that this is also a software issue, and that some games have either caps or run at framerates that do not give two shits about your hardware. Like you can use a 2013 crusty thinkpad or a desktop PC with a decent CPU and a 4080ti and it'll have the same issues. You can say whatever about how poorly coded these are, but there's plenty of games out there that way.
Dragon's Dogma is an example of a game where you cannot get a consistent framerate unless you spend an exhorbitant amount of money. Much more than any monitor with Freesync Premium/G-Sync.

>I have an IPS screen. Flickering is inherent to VRR.
I have not one, but three monitors that support freesync. One of which was 90€ and only supports freesync over HDMI, so a crappy implementation. There is zero flickering on any of them when having unstable framerates and frametimes. It's the first time in fact I hear about such thing happening on IPS. It's usually widely recommended to buy IPS over VA to avoid said problem as a matter of fact.

Blur busters have really dated tests in their website, by the way. They're only concerned about 2 brands of monitors as well (Viewsonic and Zowie). You won't find any data for more modern monitors there.

>>100220464
>It was supposed to be just a standard. But it became a de-facto single implementation. You know that.
Nice backpedaling. Xorg succeeded Xfree86 as the dominant implementation of the X11 protocol. Xwayland and arguably Xenocara are alternative implementations of the X11 protocol.

>>100220479
>Blur busters have really dated tests in their website, by the way.
This.
Their articles are from the infancy years of VRR.

>>100220410
>but no no tearing
If it's there, it's imperceptible, unlike non-vsync + non-vrr. Which makes it better than either.

>>100220464
>It was supposed to be just a standard. But it became a de-facto single implementation. You know that.
Even if you say that, Wayland neither has a single implementation nor standards for important desktop things. It's just all over the place. Everyone agrees that these are two of Wayland's worst problems.

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93 KB JPG

>>100219551
>Why do you write words when you could just draw everything you want to express, or upload a short video on the subject?

Why are you writing words using an archaic obsolete interface designed in the 1960's and 1970's? Why are you also doing it with obsolete software with key bindings designed for an extinct keyboard layout of a 1980's Sun terminal?

>>100220486
Those are all interesting facts, but what matters for what we were discussing is that there's only one relevant implementation and no one is willing to work on it or do a new one.

>>100220514
Not saying it doesn't have problems or missing things. But it's better than continuing with X11 for modern stuff. By now X11 is already missing a lot of stuff that Wayland supports.

>>100220410
>less tearing
How can VRR have any tearing at all if it's synchronized with the frame buffer?

>>100220743
> By now X11 is already missing a lot of stuff that Wayland supports.

Like what? Wayland doesn't even support HDR and it's trivial to extend X11 for HDR support.
The same is true for VRR. VRR is a compositor dependent mess on Wayland. On uncomposited X11 you have at least defined behaviour.

>>100220479
>You don't seem to understand that this is also a software issue, and that some games have either caps or run at framerates that do not give two shits about your hardware. Like you can use a 2013 crusty thinkpad or a desktop PC with a decent CPU and a 4080ti and it'll have the same issues. You can say whatever about how poorly coded these are, but there's plenty of games out there that way.
I'm guess you use windows, because this isn't an issue on GNU at all. DXVK lets you disable almost all framecaps in a game, then you can set your own with multiple tools and use either the display server or dxvk itself to enforce mailbox (or other types of) vsync.
>DD1
https://github.com/Lyall/DDDAFix

>Blur busters have really dated tests in their website
Sorry, but this is just cope. You get flickering with VRR because of the refresh rate jumping around. It's worse if you have a bad monitor or driver, but ever present.

>>100220837
It is quite simple really. I can open up a game right now and it'll use VRR on wayland without issues. I have 2 monitors connected.
If you can give me a solution for this on X11, I'll make the switch back to X11. It really is that simple. Make it so 2 monitors are connected, and one can make the game work the same way as it does on wayland, with VRR enabled. If you say it works, there must be some way you can specify how.

>>100221003
https://gitlab.com/pac85/xorg-server/-/commit/e2a4d5cf8965f7fcc8f07d04cb1e95f5e62a0094

>>100220757
Because it's not always perfectly synced. VRR changes the refresh rate of the monitor to match the framerate of the game, but unstable frametimes for the same framerate will still cause tearing.

>>100220094
because mutts aren't very bright. small portion of their population is which is carrying the rest of retards and enjoying them as labour force

>>100221062
I assume I can just apply this patch and it'll work fine?

>>100221258
It worked for me about two years ago. It should work fine if you apply it on top of the last xorg release. It probably won't apply with the upstream master, which contrary to the memes has actually gotten significant work since the last tagged major release.

>>100221296
No it applies cleanly to xserver master. I would give this a try but I don't have multiple VRR monitors so I can't even test it.

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>>100220837
>Like what?
I'm sorry, but there's a laundry list of modern features that Wayland can do that X11 can't and people have been posting them repeatedly.
I guess next time I'll create a copy pasta or something for guys like you.

>Wayland doesn't even support HDR
See pic related.

>>100221091
That makes no sense. Do you have any proof to substantiate that?
The monitor's refresh rate is directly controller by each individual frame time. How can that ever be out of sync?
I've never ever observed a single frame of screen-tearing and I've been using VRR since the 1st VRR monitor was released.
And yes, I recorded my screen at 480fps slow-motion multiple times to test that.

>>100222688
>a laundry list of modern features that Wayland can do that X11 can't
All lies I'm sure.
>pic related
That's kwin implementing an incomplete implementation of a draft wayland protocol.
https://zamundaaa.github.io/wayland/2023/12/18/update-on-hdr-and-colormanagement-in-plasma.html

>>100222713
Read the blurbusters article niggy instead of coping.

>>100222734
>draft wayland protocol
Don't care, it works.
Isn't that the typical X11 answer?

>>100222750
I've read it 7 years ago. I don't remember all the details, but I don't remember reading anything about having tearing with VRR.
Can you point me to what page of the article mentions that?

>>100222750
>>100221091
I really hope you're not talking about the frames that are ready faster than the monitor's maximum VRR range.

>>100201979
https://www.x.org/wiki/Development/X12/

>>100211949
If you want to do the
>rebuild it from the ground up, but properly this time
thing then you need to actually start from the ground up. You need a new C-like layer over assembly but properly, you need new os/drivers/etc in this new C-like language, but properly etc. Otherwise your new sleek and modern whatever is just going to degenerate into a spaghetti mess when it needs to interface with all of this lower level shit that is still exposing shitty C APIs from 40 years ago written before anyone knew wtf they were doing and who could never have anticipated just how much of the world would eventually become dependent upon it. You will never be able to quarantine it perfectly without sacrificing control, some of the lower level mess will always leak through any abstraction you try to make over it. If your goal is to fix technical debt in the bigger picture then you need to work from the bottom up and accept that it will take decades at minimum for any of these changes to propagate up and begin replacing established dependencies.

>>100207392
>mpv user
>also a pedo
pottery

>>100202025
>Autistic thought processes.
Exactly that. Too certain they knew what was wrong to put any effort into thinking about what was right, so they made masses of mistakes and locked themselves into another cycle of pain. When people pointed this out, their response was to try to kill X11 instead of fixing their own real problems.
Too much autism, and not nearly enough proper analysis or self-introspection.

>>100207392
what image viewer is that

>>100223916
It's quoted here
>>100220286

>>100201979
The bot is still making this thread, lmao.
Also factorio dev shilled wayland in the latest FFF.

>>100207392
what a shitty desktop

>>100224253
He's only a fake pedo.

>>100201979
to waste everyones time. years wasted remaking the wheel instead of improving on what we already had

>>100225171
Why is Linux like this?

>>100224521
Then it's basically what I was saying. Those frames are rendered OUT of the maximum VRR speed of the monitor, hence they will obviously tear if you don't also have Vsync enabled.
Long story short: it's not possible to have tearing inside the VRR range. It's a bad choice of words from Blur Busters but I understand it's easier to explain in layman terms that way.

>>100225201
Because it strives to be better than the others, hence why it's by far the most used OS ever. UNIX systems and Linux in particular run the whole world's infrastructure.

>>100225201
>>100225171
>Some dude made Linux when we had all these unix clones already, including open sores bsds
>"They should have just improved the unix clones we had instead of making linux"

>>100225225
>strives to be
Then why is it not? The server segment isn't the Linux desktop.

>>100220286
see >>100225206
The "sudden frametime variances" are frames that are outside of the VRR range. They will behave as if VRR does not exist.

>>100225245
You said Linux, not Linux desktop.
And even so, it is still better than Windows or Mac OS, so I don't know why you say it isn't.

>>100225294
>You said Linux, not Linux desktop.
It happens all the time, but at least the kernel follows a policy not to break userspace.
>And even so, it is still better than Windows or Mac OS,
How delusional do you have to be?

>>100225122
Wrong.

>>100225375
Who are you?

>>100225416
Someone who's not wrong.

>>100222688
KDE (which suck balls btw.) implements a non standardized protocol which is not part of Wayland and will only work with specific apps on KDE.
They could do exactly the same for their X11 compositor.

>>100225319
MacOS and Windows are both spyware botnet OSs
If you use anything but Linux or BSD you must be totally retarded.

>>100225434
You're wrong though.

>>100225447
Why does most of /g/ think that KDE sucks?

>>100225319
Enjoy your spyware.
I've used Windows my whole life and it was problems after problems.
I agree it was kinda bearable until Windows 7, but from then onwards it's been getting worse and worse. It's now basically an ad platform. I don't know how you guys put up with that shit.
After switching to KDE, I'm never ever going back to Windows. And Macs are even more closed up.

>>100225467
Why would I run spyware on Linux? Other than Firefox and Chrome, of course.

>>100225459
Ebussy disinformation squad

>>100225447
>KDE (which suck balls btw.)
Unless you need some specialty DE, I don't know why you would say that. It was buggy a few years ago, but it's been rock solid for me for the past few years. I'm using AMD on Wayland by the way.

>>100225459
I think it's just 2 or 3 very loud guys. KDE is a pretty "vanilla" DE, so I don't get why it would gather so much hate.

>>100225477
I was under the assumption you used Windows or MacOS.

>Firefox
>open-source spyware
Anon... I...

>>100225525
Telemetry. That studies shit.

>>100225508
>I think it's just 2 or 3 very loud guys.
So all these posts reporting problems with KDE are by 2 or 3 people?

>>100225459
Because they're either jobless retards who fell for the muh tiling WM meme or GNOME "contributors."
KDE on Wayland is the future of the Linux desktop.

>>100225543
All of those are in the open for you to check. You can check the code yourself and see that none of those have identifying information.
If anonymous information still pisses you off for whatever reason, you can disable all that and call it a day.

>>100225564
No. They are by 2 or 3 Nvidia users, probably. Not people.

>>100225586
>KDE on Wayland is the future of the Linux desktop.
This. It's crazy how good KDE became and so fast.
All the other DEs are just catching up.

>>100225237
why are you rewriting history? The BSDs were in legal hell at the time. Linux was the only viable open source kernel in the days.

>>100225586
>>100225618
I'm getting more the feeling that it'S 2 or 3 people hyping up KrashDE.
Fuck off, retards.

>>100202646
>go look at some old gnome 2 screenshots using emerald and beryl
Those were the days indeed.
Today there is no use case for Gnome anymore.

>>100207270
it just werks. no need to do anything. maintaining is a meme.

>>100225640
>KrashDE
Expired meme. KDE is the future and you're coping if you think otherwise.

>>100207270
>>100207392
The Linux kernel is 32 years old.
gcc is 37 years old.
VT100 is 46 years old (every terminal emulator still supports it, the codes are still used by default).
Shell (what bash and POSIX shell are based on) are 45 years old.
POSIX (still the basis of all Linux programs) is 36 years old.
C, the language used by most Linux code, is 52 years old.
E-mail is at least 53 years old.
Ethernet, the basis of all modern networking, is 44 years old.
>nooooooo X is LE OLD we MUST replace it

>>100225459
Because KDE uses a de-facto proprietary tool kit and has telemetry built in.
They KDE org also took part in the cancelling of Stallman.
KDE can not be trusted and their software bloat should be avoided at all cost.

>>100225709
What does "the future" mean? That every Linux user should switch to it? I think you should fuck off. I will never use anything this bloated and fragile.

>>100225772
>>nooooooo X is LE OLD we MUST replace it
Alright anon, go on, volunteer to be the maintainer of X11, or fork X11 and improve it.

The previous devs who were working X11 don't want it anymore, it's up to you and all the others X11 users and devs to keep the boat afloat

>>100225841
>The previous devs who were working X11 don't want it anymore, it's up to you and all the others X11 users and devs to keep the boat afloat
First, they have to continue maintaining it anyway. Xwayland is a thing. Xorg doesn't need any hardware-specific code anymore.
Second, the recent Xorg maintainers are incompetent retards, as they have proven with Wayland, which took 15 years to become finally usable, if you can believe the Wayland shills here.

>>100225809
>They KDE org also took part in the cancelling of Stallman
So did GNOME and the Xorg Foundation.

>>100226133
Goes to show how trash all these projects are.

>>100226176
So what do you use? Plain TTY?

>>100225459
It's unstable, badly maintained and trend obsessed (see windows inspired design and soft forking wayland). I switched to awesome a few weeks ago during the absolute nadir of plasma 6 and have never been happier with a DE/WM.
>>100225709
>expired meme
kek KDE advertises that they fixed dozens of bugs every plasma minor release.

>>100226210
A WM with almost no dependencies. No, not a tiling WM. It's light-weight, has no memory leaks, and can reach uptimes of up to a year. (I prefer to restart the machine to update the kernel if it has been running for too long.)
My only problem is firefox, which leaks so much memory that it sometimes gets OOM killed over night.

>>100226267
>kek KDE advertises that they fixed dozens of bugs every plasma minor release
That's a good thing. It means it's actually being actively developed unlike meme tiling WM #8283773 or xfeces.

>>100226267
>the absolute nadir of plasma 6
literally WOMM for almost everyone
it's like the bizarro version of when KDE4 was literally unusable on release but retards tried to pretend otherwise

How is xfce these days? I'm scared of the GTK dependency.

>>100226334
So now we're at the stage of pretending that there weren't back to back bump limit threads about plasma 6 being buggy as shit for weeks after release?

>>100226344
>How is xfce these days?
Dead with no Wayland support. Keep in mind that even Cinammon and MATE managed to develop experimental Wayland sessions but Xfeces still hasn't. That's how unmaintained it is.

>>100213699
> Xorg devs
Xorg saboteurs who took over project and killed it.

>>100226376
>dead because no wayland
If you're just butthurt why reply?

>>100226376
wayland support is coming in xfce 4.20

>>100226400
>>100226441
>lagging behind Cinnamon and MATE devs, let alone GNOME and KDE devs
It's dead.

>>100226502
>doesn't jump on the latest trend immediately
>actually implements wayland but NOOOO IDS DOO LADE IDS OVER
Stupid demoralizers.

>>100201979
To allow redhat (ibm) to sell more support packages when thousands of legacy applications do not work on the botched xwayland compatibility layer.

>>100201979
To make setups with different refresh rates on both monitors work better, also HDR I guess but that's not a thing quite yet. If it wasn't for the first I would likely hold off using it desu, but I am running Hyprland

>>100223906
It doesn't work.
>Obviously there is still a lot to do. Color management is limited to either sRGB or full-blown rec.2020, you shouldn’t have to install stuff from Github yourself, and certainly shouldn’t have to mess around with the command line4 to play games and watch videos in HDR, HDR screenshots and HDR screen recording aren’t a thing yet, and many other small and big things need implementing or fixing.
He also left out
>you can't calibrate your screen on the wayland session
>draft wayland protocol
No, KDE's "HDR" is a port of Joshua Ashton's gamescope work which itself implements a subset of features of the draft wayland protocol for general color management and HDR. What's actually upstream in kwin now has little to do with the actual draft protocol.

>>100212037
I still get a roughly 5% performance decrease when using wayland instead of X, and it's not even just gaming bit every perceivable use-case, even things that are completely unrelated to the display server like terminal applications.

>>100225459
KDE 5.27 was a large step in the right direction with a massive amount of bug fixes and a few months later they threw all the hard work out the window with another botched major release with KDE 6. For all Gnomes bullshit design choices it's generally solid in terms of game breaking bugs and every point release generally doesn't break much (outside of extensions). That said XFCE or Cinnamon are the only sane choices for DE's if you're using Linux.

>>100213699
Wayland is having to hack on "modern" features too. See >>100219773
Both Xorg and Wayland suck, just Xorg is mature and doesn't break.
The new thing is *supposed* to be obviously better to replace the old.
That is not the case, it is replacing bad with bad.
Linux should have copied Plan 9 rio instead.

>>100227117
>That said XFCE or Cinnamon are the only sane choices for DE's if you're using Linux.
MATE is comfy too. Now I'm on xfce, but MATE is always a good, bloat-less alternative that just werks unless you are one of those faggots concerned about aesthetics.

>>100219773
Explain this to me. What is the compositor waiting for?

From what I understand, the GPU is completely async about rendering work. A client can start rendering to a surface, and that rendering work can (ideally) continue in the background even after it was passed to another process. (The GPU doesn't care about process boundaries in the first place.) The surface is like a lazily evaluated value that needs to be finished only when actual scanout happens (displaying it on screen), though userspace might need to instruct the driver to wait for it to finish before it can be used.

What and why is Wayland syncing here? That last surface sync before scanout I mentioned?

>>100218500
x11 supports using monitors with different refresh rates. just admit that what you actually want is wobbly windows

>>100227219
>What is the compositor waiting for?
The client to finish rendering. In wayland, committing a wl_buffer requires that the rendering on the surface is finished before the compositor can read it. It's implictly synced right to the core. There is no "rendering work can (ideally) continue in the background" in this scheme. It's impossible and wasn't designed like that. The latest explict sync protocol works completely different unsurprisingly.

>>100227327
Surely they're somehow working it around?

>>100217568
>from years
Good morning saar!

>>100227405
GOOD MORNING SAAAAAAAAAR

>>100227400
Well yes with the new protocol. It works by sending DRM synchronization objects.

Wayland is smoother and more efficient than X11 but it's being hindered by retarded designers and gnome.

Reminder that most Wayland haters don't hate it because it's newer than X, or because they love X so much.
It's for real, tangible, justified reasons, about which you can read here.
Ignoring that makes you a retarded Wayland fanboy. Maybe even just a troll who likes flamewars.

The Wayland permission system was also badly tacked on, make it a core component or don't bother

>>100227256
It's a hack and only works best at factored refresh rates or: 120hz and 60hz. If you have a 144hz refresh rate monitor, and since no one makes a 72 hz monitor it won't factor well because it still bases it off one monitor, this time off the highest refresh rate instead of locking everything to the lowest refresh rate. 144hz and 60hz will create stutters on the 60hz monitor. You get gains with 240hz and 144hz however. But fuck up again if you have 240hz and 144hz.

>>100227843
240hz and 60hz would work ok. Its the 144hz monitor that will fuck everything up

>>100227769
>X fanatics
>having arguments
haven't read the thread yet but that would certainly be a new one
i hope you're not baiting me with BS like i NEED tearing or i NEED nvidia

>>100219268
t. doesn't know that running multiple X sessions is possible. you know that your software has access to your disk, right?
acting like Wayland makes you a lot more secure is fucking retarded. any motherfucker running software that they believe might be tainted would be wise to use something like Qubes

>>100227983
>tainted
any software is a potential attack surface
and reading files of the user the software is running under is a whole lot different than access to the contents of an encrypted database

>>100227810
>The Wayland permission system was also badly tacked on
It literally doesn't have one. They just outsourced it lol

>>100201979
To make multi monitor, high refresh rate, high definition monitors actually work

>>100201979
To replace an old, outdated, and clunky garbage display server that was cobbled together with duct tape for the past 30 years which was holding Linux back as a desktop

>>100227167
that poster has no idea what he's talking about, he can't even say why he thinks it's flawed and wrong, he just made a bs assertion

>>100226133
Yes, they are all pozzed, infiltrated and sabotaged.
For the Xorg foundation it's especially apparent since they deliberately stifle xserver developement and push inferior solutions that are purposely broken by design like Wayland.

>>100202354
>this. at this point they keep developing wayland out of sunk cost fallacy
This has got to be it. I genuinely find it hard to believe that the few edge cases X11 lacked support for were *so* insurmountable that it necessitated spending 15 years rewriting everything from scratch.

>>100202051
Funnily enough, my experience on Wayland is that it's far *less* smooth than X11 (on AMD hardware, mind you). With the recent Plasma 6 update, all of the animations on the Wayland session are laggy as fuck, whereas X11 is smooth as butter (but that session has its own issues, and both sessions have ugly window content resizing when you tile a window compared to Plasma 5). Arguably the only thing that seems far improved with regards to smoothness is resizing a Chromium-based browser (which looks dreadful on X11), but this is only when explicitly setting a flag for the browser to run under Wayland, and it makes the browser so unstable that I end up having to run it through XWayland anyway.

>>100229215
>This has got to be it. I genuinely find it hard to believe that the few edge cases X11 lacked support for were *so* insurmountable that it necessitated spending 15 years rewriting everything from scratch.
i know! why did they spend decades making these filesystems with new features and speed when they could have just improved ext4?
btrfs? who needs a CoW filesystem? who needs snapshots or checksums? theyve been working on it for 16 years and its still not ready!

>>100227940
>or i NEED nvidia
wait so even the pro-Wayland shills admit it's shit with Nvidia?

>>100229644
nvidia driver is shit on wayland.
nvidia needs to fix their driver.
they claim their upcoming driver will fix it but knowing nvidia, lmao.

>>100219268
>So you like the fact that all your X11 apps can read your master password and have access to the whole database?
But so do Wayland apps.

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>>100227983
>you know that your software has access to your disk, right?
It doesn't

>>100229644
yes you cant even use wayland on nvidia 9 times out of 10

>>100230572
if you install flatseal you realize cuckpak actually doesn't really sandbox your software

>>100210200
>>100211862
lol better not use a high poll rate mouse on that streamlined modern graphics stack of yours

>>100212037
TRVTHNVKE

Wayland to X.org is what >>>/pol/ is to 4chan.org

>>100226351
I bet they were all Nvidia users.
I've been using it since release with zero problems.

>>100232988
>nvidia le bad
I might just buy a nvidia card to shit on wayland trannies who are too poor to own one.

>>100226725
A lot of words to say it works on Wayland and doesn't work on X11. Just like a lot of other modern features.

>>100227983
>you know that your software has access to your disk, right?
Maybe yours do. Mine doesn't. I don't allow it for untrustworthy software, such as closed-source stuff.

>>100230556
Wrong. See above.

>>100229644
>it's shit with Nvidia
Nvidia's drivers are broken with Wayland and lots of other Linux stuff.
Ask Nvidia to get out of their asses and fix their shit.

>>100233089
>ask nvidia to fix wayland
no need to, it just works on X.org

>>100219268
Is not there was lately big issue with Wayland because applications where having access to loging prompt when everything was locked? Which Waylandfags just scoffed as "uuhhh it's a big deal!"?

Have some fucking principles in your life, faggot. Wayland is not better in this case than X11 and does everything much worse... except maybe meme display setups but apparently that sits on X11's Github ready to be released but for months faggots like you are stalling it out of spite.

Wayland lost, the only reason why it's still alive is spite of few people still working on it. If we would put energy sunk into this pointless experiment into X11 things would be actually better.

>>100233089
>I don't allow it for untrustworthy software, such as closed-source stuff.
Wayland doesn't enable this, idiot. You need other garbage to sandbox programs on Linux. Wayland doesn't even help here. Even with X11, you could just run a nested server. Claiming that Wayland enables sandboxed apps is highly dishonest.

>>100229158
what? Implicit sync is wrong. GPUs don't work like that and neither do modern graphics APIs. In order to parallelize the GPU work as much as possible, you need to use explicit sync.

>>100218500
>Because while the software stack never changes, new bugs are constantly found as other software gets developed, including new drivers for new hardware. As new hardware is sold with new features, people who buy that hardware would like to use those features. Such as HDR. Some people buy new monitors with higher refresh rates to use in conjunction with their old monitor with a lower refresh rate. One day we may have displays that do something entirely different like 3d holographics or shoot images directly into your eyeballs and x11 will most likely not support those technologies either.
And how does any of this justify the existence of Wayland?

>>100227256
X11 has supported wobbly windows for decades.

It's funny. Every feature that Wayland devs claim doesn't work on X actually does work. You now see people in this very thread claiming that you can't have proper multimonitor support on X, something that has worked fine for decades.

No project resorts to outright lies like Wayland.

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>>100234202
b-but even when it does work, you had to like, configure it with xrandr, it doesn't just work
t. trannyland maindev